31 August 2006
DIE ZEIT: Did Nasrallah win the war?Zipi Liwni: Now the boss of the Hezbollah talks differently: Had he known theIsraeli reaction to the unprovoked attack, he would have stood down. Hezbollahis clearly weakened. In Lebanon things are happening that would have been unthinkable a few months ago. The army goes to the south, supported byinternational troops.ZEIT: The Lebanese army is not a real army.Liwni: It's not about their quality, but about a government who enforces its sovereignty in the whole country. After all, there is e weapons embargo againstHezbollah now. The fact that they accept this, shows how weak the Hezbollah is,although they could reconstitute their old power quickly. ZEIT: The goal of the war was the disarmament and the expulsion of theHezbollah.Liwni: No, it was the goal to send a message: Israel does not put up with theattacks any longer. A second goal was to weaken the Hezbollah to a point where they would accept an international intervention. The UN resolution 1701(weapons embargo and peace corps) was outlined in my ministry two days afterthe start of the operation. Of course we could have stayed in the south of Lebanon forever, but that wasn't the goal.ZEIT: What was the goal – just a signal?Liwni: No, but also to motivate/make the Beyrouth government to send theirtroops to the south and to oppose rearmement. We were further able to destroy long-distance rockets ant to push Hezbollah away from the border. Of coursethat's not enough. But we wanted to give the Beyrouthians a chance.ZEIT: The Lebanese army is the virtual army of a virtual state. What can be done against Hezbollah, the secondbest army in the Near East?Liwni: The Lebanese army is not supposed to defend Israel; that is ourresponsibility. But we want to help to turn Lebanon into a normal, independent state. That is the optimistic version. The other is: If nothing changes, wewill intervene again.ZEIT: … against a virtual state?Liwni: No, we have consciously abstained from an attack on Lebanon as such; for that, we would only have needed a few days. We wanted political change that hadalready been initiated by resolution 1559: Syria had to leave Lebanon.ZEIT: Maybe that was a mistake since Syria had achieved relative quiet through an iron fist.Liwni: No, I don't think that. Syria stays unconstructively constructive inagitating against international troops that are supposed to watch the weaponsembargo on its borders.ZEIT: Assad has recently held a speech that, among heavy bashing, contained the small word "peace": We want peace but the Israeli don't want it.Liwni: Israel wants peace ever since the foundation of the state.ZEIT: That wasn't an interesting signal?Liwni: It's not about words but about actions. Up until now, Damascus is the spoilsport in the region. If Syria wants to participate, it has to act moreresponsibly.ZEIT: The message to Hezbollah was deterrence: Never again! But isn't Israelalso deterred from another armed operation – after all the world-wide protests against "disproportion" and "breaching of peoples rights"?Liwni: (sighs) I hope that there won't be another round. But remember: Israeldefended itself against an unprovoked aggression and was supported by the international community in this…ZEIT: … for a while …Liwni: …okay, for two weeks, but the world has to understand that there can becivil victims, if terrorists hide among civilians. But the Israeli army will always fight in a way that civil victims are avoided.ZEIT: This war was not only one between Israel and Hezbollah. How about the notso silent partners Syria and Iran. Was this the first Israeli-Iranian war? Liwni: It is true that Hezbollah defends not Lebanese, but Iranian interests.But this wasn't open war against Iran.ZEIT: The American scientist Fouad Ajami said to Zeit: With this war, Iran "hasbought a border to Israel". Liwni: Sure. Hezbollah is the long arm of Iran, which does not have a borderwith Israel. We still avoided escalation with Syria and Iran.ZEIT: We read that the Generalstabschef (chief general?) has long named a general for "countries not bordering Israel" – Iran.Liwni: Don't believe everything you read in the newspapers.ZEIT: Wrong?Liwni: (sighs) Me, too I am supposed to have named someone to negotiate with Syria.ZEIT: Congratulations!Liwni: It is just another example for exaggerations. We have to deal with thethreats and come to our own conclusions.ZEIT: But Israel doesn't have a real strategic option against Iran. Liwni: You are too pessimistic.ZEIT: I only have to look at a map and at the means that Israel has, or moreclearly, doesn't have.Liwni: At the moment Israel supports the efforts of the international community to stop the Iranian nuclear program. I hope that it (int.c.) is determinedenough, and then we'll see what happens.ZEIT: Israel always opposed international troops in Lebanon. Where did thischange of mind come from? Liwni: This time we want to have a calculated risk. We don't need these troopsto defend Israel. But we want to cooperate with them to help Beyrouth put theirsoldiers in the south and to keep the weapons embargo. That is what this is about.ZEIT: Israel was always against these troops because they would maybe hinder anIsraeli army operation in the south of Lebanon. What if Hezbollah will rearmand fire? Will you attack French and Italian soldiers? Liwni: We accept these troops if they are robust and effective. What would bethe alternative: Pull-out and hoping for the Lebanese army? Or even stay?That's what it is like in the Near East: only choices between bad and worse. ZEIT: The Israeli army had had a hard time to cope with Hezbollah fighterssupplied and trained by Iran. Why would Italians be any better?Liwni: We trust the whole concept: Lebanese army plus international troops. ZEIT: Hezbollah only needs to use the classic tactic to shoot rockets fromtheir close neighborhood to provoke an Israeli attack on their camps.Liwni: Ever since the resolution 1701 with its obligation to truce has been published, Hezbollah did not break that truce.ZEIT: Again congratulations!Liwni: The Lebanese k now the price for an attack on Israel, and Hezbollahknows the price that such an attack would have for their political position inside the system. That is why I don't think that Hezbollah would plan arepetition that fast. But still: That is a threat that the Beyrouth and theinternational community have to deal with.ZEIT: Another miracle: Israel welcomes German forces, and Berlin wants to provide them. But the past is still alive.Liwni: The past is part of our relationship and it will always stay that way.But we have to distinguish between the meaning of it for our people and thesituation in Lebanon. As I said: We do not want to be protected, we want to cooperate with these troops to improve the situation in Lebanon. If Germanyparticipates it would be an independent German decision: I am not in Berlin toask for German troops. It is about how Germany wants to play its part in the realization of resolution 1701.ZEIT: Then why are you here? So that the Germans play the mediator in theexchange of prisoners again?Liwni: 1701 asks for unconditional realease of Israeli hostages. My visit has nothing to do with mediation. It is about Iran and foremost about thesurveillance of the weapons embargo.ZEIT: Is the relation between Berlin and Jerusalem better today than it used tobe?Liwni: I have just been minister of the exterior for a few months. But the relation has always been a special and friendly one.ZEIT: The relation with Europe in general seems to improve. Israel used toignore the EU, because it was too weak and maybe also too pro-arabic.Liwni: The world has changed, because the new threats do not only target Israel anymore. There is a clash of ideologies, and Israel understands itself as partof the West. Israel and Europe share the same values, and also many interests,although Europe doesn't always see it that way. I am ready to be criticized by Europe, as long as Europe and the world use the same standards as forthemselves as our enemies.Every jurisdiction distinguishes between a murderer, who kills on purpose andone that kills by accident, not wanting to kill. These are the standards that I want to be judged by. The protest was harsher against Israel than it wasagainst Hezbollah who killed civilians on purpose. Hezbollah is seen as wildteenager; Europe should make them act like grown-ups.ZEIT: There is massive critique also inside Israel. Is there danger for theprime minister and the chief of staff?Liwni: (laughst) The future will show. If the situation in Lebanon improves thepublic will hopefully realize that there was some good to it, too. ZEIT: The government stays?Liwni: As far as I can judge it, yes.ZEIT: Are you the next prime minister?Liwni: (moans and laughs) I don't know.İngilizce'ye Çeviren: Conni Letsch
